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 Thoughts about caps

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West
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PostSubject: Thoughts about caps   Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:51 pm

Guys, what do you think about caps? How high should you be able to gain a skill? And how high resistances would a character have? I think in Grimm all caps are set quite low... But that's my opinion.

Or should you make some connection between when your char gets older and how high his skill goes?
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Tikk



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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts about caps   Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:58 am

Skill caps
Personaly, Id rather set skillcaps to a max of 100. No powerscrolls or things like that. They only mess up fights and make them more about having scrolls than being a good teamplayer. For crafting they arent realy needed, its easy to adjust any requirements to fit a 100 flat top.


The reason Im a big fan of 100 flat is the same reason I hate artifacts, resistances, magic swords of imba etc etc.... It ruins the whole aspect of teamplay.

I want it to be simple. You should not be able to grind forever to get the hottest equipment around. Its not good sport and it does nothing to add RP. We better keep a simple system like normal wepons/armor and exeptional ones, all crafter made. Magic can be introduced by GMs/Seers as a reward for astounding RP, nothing else. And as I said, this ties in with skillcaps also. Keeping it a flat 100 max ensures no one can grind for an unfair advantage.


That said!
If we implement an age system that controls (to some extent) your skillcap, together with a class system that also regulates it, we have a winner. This ensures the veteran players have an advantage, but that advantage then has to do with them being here a long time RPing, not collecting gold, loot and powerscrolls.

I'll make a post with my view on the age thing on the game mech board and its effects on skillcaps / stat caps.

Likewise, we need a post discussing the class system. One thing id like to say however is that we should not implement anything that resticts UOs truly amazing free nature. You should not be pushed into a set selection of skills to fullfill a class. 2 required skills are enough. But also, the for example, Knights class should not have restrictions on your non-class skills. Grimmwolds system seems about right to me.


Resistances
Onwards to resistances. Well, if we can revert back to only 1 resistance, that being Physical resistance, I would be very happy. And no cap should be set on this. Instead, the quality of your armor should decide your protection against attacks.

If we make the best possible armor out there have say 70 in resist, that armor would be so expensive it would be for Supreme Kings only.
I have a few ideas about armor too, specialy liked what you said Skar about leather not being as good as steel plate.
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West
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts about caps   Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:25 pm

You have some good thoughts there Tikk but I still think that setting up skillcaps to 100 is a bit low. And by setting it to 100 you will reach that level quite fast. For example, if you are 16 years old when you start play you shouldnt be able to be a GM at the age of 17. But we shall take this in consideration Smile

Another aspect is, what about we give a character a certain amount of skillpoints and the character can decide where to place em. I mean, you can have 150 in Swordsmanship but then you have to lower another skill to 50. Do you get me? Like giving away for example 900 skillpoints for 9 skills whatever you can decide for yourself how to place em..

I would care less if we have powerscrolls or not, there is no really need for them.

Platemail should perhaps contain a better resistance then leather. However, if you wish to be a Rogue for example and stealth alot you wont be able to have a platemail set. So there should exist leather armor types that has very good resistance's as well. Still, I guess this is still a little bit of an fantasy shard? Very Happy
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Tikk



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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts about caps   Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:51 pm

Yes I agree with you that the issue with GMing a skill at the age of 17 has to be adressed. But if im not mistaken, Skar wanted to have a hard skill gain system. What Im proposing in my "Age System" thread (that is not finalized yet) is that depending on your age, some skills will improve faster and some slower.
I might even go as far as proposing artificial caps depending on your age.

I also fully support the idea of Total Cap of 900. I understand what your aiming at with the 150 in one at the cost of lowering another to 50. The reasoning is sound, but I fear for the implications. Allready now if you take say Tactics to 120, it gives you extra bonuses to damage. I have no idea how extrapolate that bonus onwards to 150. An even worse nightmate I asume is the basic hit/miss calculations. It will be a nightmare to balance everything.

A figther with 150 against a fighter at 120 skill in say swords?
150 vs 100
150 vs 80

More so, adding skill above 100 only does one thing. It tips the favour of veteran players over newer/younger players even further to the newbies disadvantage. I would hate to se a system that technicaly makes the only viable battle character a longtime vet. The shard will be based around pillaging and raiding. I would strongly emphasize the need to have a level playing field that allows even people with say 80 in their combat skills to feel usefull.

If you level the playingfield, it removes the unesesary "grind" aspect plagues UO.

1. No equipment grind, you get that from your local smithy.
2. No skill gain grind, you can still participate even if you are not Maxed Out.
3. It promotes Team Tactics such as Cross healing, tactical movement etc.


Besides these things, you have the obvious absurdity that skills over 100 allways has been. It was a cheap trick introduced to keep players grinding. Nothing more.
The simple fact that you had an easy understandable, perfectly sensible system that went from 0% skill to 100% skill should have been enough. If you have mastered a subject you know 90% or more about it. Once you become a grand master, you know everything currently known about it, 100%.

The Legendary title isnt realy any use. If you want to be a legendary warrior, I find it much more appealing to be known as one through RP rather than a game mech that I've grinded to the max. If I am a legendary blacksmith, my work is known throughout the world and people price my goods.
A good example, pre powerscrolls, was the very wellknown blacksmith/crafter on Europa shard pre powerscrolls. I have forgot his name now (gah! typical) but his smithing stuff was all over the place. He used to hang at the north Britain smithy. Now that guy was a legendary blacksmith, known shardwide.


About placemail vs leather. I think its a matter of adding pros vs cons.
Id rather not have a flat rate here. Leather should not give as much protection against blows as plate. Instead, leather should have an advantage plate has not. Same goes for Plate, it should give the best protection avaliable, but at a cost. Ringmail, somewhere in the middle, might offer no advantages or disadvantages and offer a medium protection.

But I do understand you concern with rogues and leather. You wouldnt want to put on leather on your rogue in an atempt to keep with the RP aspects of such a character only to find you will get whopped by anything in plate. Leather should have its uses! But I think it would be a mistake to make it as good as plate for blocking physical damage.
This is a discussion we should hold in a separate thread I think Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts about caps   Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:57 pm

Well, thanks for clear some stuff up Razz I do not disagree with your ideas Tikk, it's more a lecture for me reading this post, haha. However, it seems like good ideas.

Still I am a bit of a bitch regarding the leather vs plate issue, hehe. Who knows what kind of leather that exists in this world? At least I think there should be really good leather suits even though they may not be as good as the plate one. But I rekon this matter is a bit early to discuss... right?

albino
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Billpete002



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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts about caps   Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:21 am

I too feel the 0-100 scale is perfect and frankly West & Tikk I would go one step further with "someone at skill 80 feels useful" I would even have someone at skill 10, 20 or 30! Yeah sure they will be no where near as good as someone with 100, but we don't want people just sitting in town till skill 80+ macroing! We want them raping, pillaging, and murdering!!

Suggestions: Armor:

Leather < Studded < Ring < Chain < Plate (doesn't exist till late game)

What we can do is each armor caps your dex! - so if you want to be a rouge with chain you can but your dex will be taking a HUGE hit say -20 or even more! With leather being maybe a -5 (clothing = 0) so this makes a rouge very handy as they have tons of dex which uses the skills he needs: hide/stealth/archery etc.

As for the age thing - it may be doable with scripts when someone logs in - but that only reads the day they've had their character... I am not sure if there is a clock that measures the time they have played (say you go on vacation? should we "penalize" players for that?)

Resists:

Humans/armor/weapons etc all are physical - monsters should cause different resists and then if the person is lucky enough to get a magical item these most likely will provide a resist outside physical - like Gandalf's ring that makes him immune to fire. (note we most likely would never give something that provides 100% resist...)

That said to make a person with low skills useful I think we can make damage higher. So while a new player might miss a lot he will provide a lot of speradic damage. Sure this may not apply so much with a tradesman, but the server is geared to plunder and looting, and the less scripts we need bulldogc or scatter make the better!
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts about caps   Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:25 pm

Ok, 0-100 it is then, except for the Godlike/seer/staff character. I guess?

The armor idea you have about Rogue is quite good. Let me see if I understood you right, if you have for example 125 DEX. If you stealth and use chainmail armor your DEX will be 105, right?

Even though I think a Rogue would never use such armor Razz

Resists: Only Physial res. is fine for me but I think it should not be capped. And there should exist rare armor with really good phys. res. however it should be really HARD to find.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts about caps   Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:24 am

for simplicity issues it might be faster/easier to see how the skills are currently configured with the stock syste before settling on a base score, if for example the maxes that are programed for the skills are 175 or 150 or what have you, it would be a lot easier to leave the skills like that and adjust the total skill point caps and/or gain rates accordingly then it would be to alter and rebalance all the skills back to a 100 level. the numbers are fairly irrelivent as long as the system desired is balanced around it. skill scrolls dont even need to factor into it, if we dont want them that can be removed.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts about caps   Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:04 pm

The coded cap is 120 with the original system, but a cap of 100 is that it is technicaly allready there. Its only a matter of removing powerscrolls from the loot tables and voila, the cap is set.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts about caps   Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:18 am

not quite that simple if you want the "old" skill setup
if you were to take the 120 system currently installed and just caped it to 100 you would be removing skill functionality from the game, animal taming is a good example of this. many higher up monsters only are tamable above 100 skill in the 120 skill system, simply removing the ability to get over 100 compleatly negates the ability to tame those animals. in the case of say weapon skills lobing off this section of the skill will likely just reduce chance to hit and damage(possiblespecial attacks if they are also implimented) but other skills will suffer harder, bardic skills being a big set.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts about caps   Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:45 pm

Yes, that is true.
I might have worded myself badly, sorry. Naturaly we will have to take a look at skills and their function above 100, smithing comes to mind, but that was our intention in the first place. Things that does not suit the shard should not be on the shard. What I meant about a cap at 100 allready being there was simply that the cap itself is easy to set, as opposed to a increasing it.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts about caps   Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:26 am

all i was saying is its pretty likely easier to change that cap and slightly increase the gain rates to make up for the added skillpoints then it is to go through all the skills and change that kinda stuff, now depending on howmuch work your planing on doing to the skills themsels that may not be the case.
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